Episode 10 Researching Your Bomber Command Ancestor

We answer the question we get asked most frequently - "How do I go about researching someone who served with RAF Bomber Command?"

In this episode, we discuss how to research ancestors or family members who served with RAF Bomber Command during World War II. We provide a guide to tackling this topic and share own own experiences. We'll cover topics such as obtaining service records, using the London Gazette, exploring Squadron records, contacting Squadron Associations and utilizing genealogy websites.

Patience, persistence, and thinking outside the box when conducting research is key!

We'll explain how to access and research the service records of RAF personnel, and provide guidance on finding digitized records at the National Archives, paying for digitization services, and visiting the archives in person. We'll also be highlighting the importance of Squadron Diaries and Operational Record Books in understanding an ancestor's military service, using Commonwealth War Graves Records and the International Bomber Command Centre Losses Database, finding information on casualties, and the challenges of researching ground crew.

Finally,  we answer questions from listeners about tracking complete service records and finding photographs of training units..

To make things easier for you, here's a list of links to all the resources we talk about in this episode. You can also read an article based on this episode on Jane's website, https://www.justcuriousjane.com/

Obtain UK service records

Obtain RCAF service records

Obtain RAAF service records

Obtain RNZAF service records

London Gazette

The National Archives (including Casualty files ) 

Commonwealth War Graves Commission

International Bomber Command Centre Losses Database 

Transcript

Hello and welcome to a special episode of Never Mind the Dambusters with me, James Jefferies and my co -host, Jane Gulliford -Lowes. Today's episode is going to be be a little bit different from the norm for two reasons. Firstly, we're joined by live by some of the supporters of the show. So it's going to be a bit like a live stream and hello everybody. Thank you for joining us. Secondly, the subject matter of the episode is something that's very close to both of our hearts.

And that's how to research an ancestor or family member who served with RAF Bomber Command during the Second World War. This is a question that we both get asked a lot. And so we thought it would be good to focus on a podcast episode for this and something for us to point to when we're asked in the future, inevitably. As researchers, we know how frustrating it could be sometimes and that research can hit brick walls. But hopefully today we can provide something of a guide to tackling this topic. But before we get into details, Jane, what have you been up to this week?

jane (01:04.11)
Hello again, everyone, and a big hello to our live audience. That sounds all very Hollywood and glamorous, doesn't it? Nevermind the Dam Busters is recorded before a live audience. Or it's a bit Mrs Brown's Boys, God forbid, isn't it? Yeah. Anyway, what have I been up to? Well, my book on Bomber Command Gardening Operations, that's minelaying for the uninitiated, has finally gone off to the publisher this week. Woo! So I should explain that we're recording this in June and this episode won't be going out until the end of July.

James Jefferies (01:14.688)
Love it.

jane (01:32.334)
I finally received the foreword from James Holland this week. Massive thank you to James for doing that and it's fantastic. Honestly, I was so over the moon when I read it. Almost shed a tear. Absolutely thrilled. What a top bloke he is. So all being well, I'm just waiting for the diagrams and the maps and then Invisible Campaign should be published in October finally. What about you? What have you been up to James?

James Jefferies (01:57.28)
Yeah, well, first, that's absolutely brilliant, isn't it? Really, really exciting and lovely of James to do that. What have I been up to? Well, I'm glad to say I finished my marking. I'm over the moon over that. I seem to be it seemed to be endless this year. I also now it's mainly working on presentations, a little bit of writing. And when this goes out end of July, I'm still in Cambridge teaching on a World War Two course, which I mentioned, I think, in the previous episode. So, yeah, that's what I've been up to.

jane (02:07.758)
Well done, congratulations!

jane (02:23.854)
Yeah, that sounds great actually. Yeah, that sounds like a really good experience.

James Jefferies (02:26.548)
it's really exciting. I'm going to take them. Yeah, we're going to Bletchley Park, Duxford, the cemetery, Maddingley, the American cemetery there. And yeah, I'm taking them all around Cambridge and showing them bits and bobs. And yeah, it was really good, but I did last year. So, yeah.

jane (02:41.678)
So these like sort of A level age students then or what sort of age group are they? Yeah.

James Jefferies (02:45.184)
Yeah, so they're looking at this year, I'm actually teaching slightly younger. So last year it was 16, 17 year olds and now it's 14 to 16, I think. So just, yeah, last year of school sort of. Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. It really is. And a beautiful place, Cambridge as well. Shout out to a wonderful place. So Jane, do you want to explain a little bit more about what we're going to be talking about today?

jane (02:54.766)
Alright, okay, yeah. Well, that's a lovely opportunity for them as well, isn't it? That's really great. Yeah, fantastic. Yep.

Absolutely, yeah.

jane (03:12.334)
Yeah, one of the most common questions that we both get asked is about how to find out more information about a family member or friend who served with bomber command. I often get emails from people along the line of, my wife's uncle Billy Smith was a tail gunner Lancaster. I don't know which squadron or when, what can you tell me about him? And the answer is usually, well, nothing. And people seem genuinely surprised.

What you need to bear in mind is that there were around 125 ,000 men from all over the world who served as aircrew with bomber command. And there is no central database recording every man who served. Likewise, hundreds of thousands of more men and women served as ground crew and in support roles with the RAF and the Women's Auxiliary Air Force as well, of course, over the course of the war. So all told, you're probably looking at something in the region of about half a million personnel.

So while we might not be able to give you any specifics on the person that you're looking for, what we can do is give you a list of places where you can look to gather that information for yourself. So you're going to have to be prepared to put in some graft and it can take a while. Sadly, it's much easier to find information about aircrew who were killed for obvious reasons, but we'll be talking a little bit about that later on.

It also depends where in the world the person came from. For example, the Royal Canadian Air Force records are much easier to track down and much more comprehensive than Royal Air Force ones. So, James, do you want to sort of explain a bit more detail what we're going to be looking at?

James Jefferies (04:53.12)
Yeah, well, I thought I'd give an example of one of my own family members in the RAF. So I've got a few ties to the RAF, but my most direct is my great granddad on my dad's side. And only recently, despite all of my studies and talks and everything I've done, I've only really started looking into what he did in more detail. So my dad had his medals, which were the service medals, they weren't gallantry medals. And I knew that he was an NCO, non -commissioned officer, an irk.

which we'll explain a little bit more later on. And there were inevitably with family histories, there's always a lot of stories, isn't there? There's so and so did this, did that. It's always kind of vague and it's never anything you can really put your foot down on. So one of the things that was going around about my great granddad was, yeah, he was involved with Arnhem, Operation Market Garden. And I went, really? And I was digging into it and I couldn't really find out a lot. And we had a few objects. So one was actually a brass.

jane (05:27.726)
Yeah, always. Yeah.

jane (05:41.87)
All right, yeah.

James Jefferies (05:49.536)
Bristol Blenheim that apparently had made from some spare brass that was knocking around. That was the story. And maybe that's so the scenes of my interest in the Blenheim, I don't know. But there are a few other things. So recently I got hold of his service record, which again, we'll go into more detail shortly. And I found out quite a lot. So he was an armourer. And

jane (05:58.542)
Could well have done, yeah

James Jefferies (06:14.304)
the service history does, again we'll talk about this a little bit more, is it says where they were stationed, how long they were stationed at a particular place, where they were attached, and extra qualifications and such, as well as promotions. It's so, so useful. And I found out that amongst other things he was attached to 42, 42 Group, and as I say he was an armourer, and he and the story was the first day of the war he signed up, he was down the recruitment office, and I found out that he wasn't. It was at the end, it was

kind of like the summer of 1940. So yeah, that story is typical. I've got nothing against that. He might well have tried to have volunteered and there might have been something that, you know, stopped him from actually signing up straight away. I don't know. I will never know that story. But yeah, he signed up summer of 1940, probably seeing the Battle of Britain, getting inspired to join the RAF and he joins. He's also attached to some maintenance units. But what I found very interesting was he was a RAF Netheravon

for D -Day and Market Garden that helped prepare gliders and he was qualified for a number of things including LTTBs which are light tanks with heavy armour and I found that especially interesting and it went with the stories that he handled weapons and handled you know some quite exciting kit including we've got a deactivated 20 millimeter shell that apparently he deactivated in a vice with a hammer.

jane (07:17.006)
jane (07:38.83)
you have yeah excuse me with a hammer

James Jefferies (07:40.544)
yeah, so I would have got that one checked, but yeah. yeah, with a hammer, just knocked the end off and apparently, yeah, shot the, I don't know. I mean, someone's probably going to tell me, I've got that story. Again, these are stories that I've heard and I'm not a mechanic by any armor at all. but I need to take a deeper dive on his service history, but the, the, the main thing is with the service history, it's a huge starting point.

And there's going to be a lot of stuff that you're scratching your head over and saying, I don't know what the, and then interpreting writing is a nightmare. I mean, isn't it Jane with these fellow resources sometimes? Yeah.

jane (08:12.718)
God, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know how GP signatures are horrendous. Yeah. It's basically like doctors writing, but amped up a thousand times. Yeah. So bad. And it's all abbreviations and numbers and stuff. Yeah.

James Jefferies (08:17.824)
Yeah.

James Jefferies (08:22.4)
Yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. And I mean, I don't know them all. I have to look some of them up and stuff. But yeah. So I need to take a deeper dive. And also some of his service history is blocked out still. I hope that's good. His service, you know, his service said, you know, I can't think of the word, but his good behavior was excellent and all the rest of it, an exemplary service record. So I really want to take a dive into what that was.

So that's the next step. I mean, as I say, I've got other links to the RAF and my granddad on my mum's side. He was in REME He was part of Operation Torch. I've got his service record. I need to dive into that as well. But yeah, as I say, you get these stories, don't you? You get these loose ends and a case of trying to fix them together. And often there's half truths, aren't there? Yeah, but again, we'll go into that. Yeah.

jane (09:14.446)
Yeah, very much so. Yeah. Yeah.

James Jefferies (09:17.792)
So today, that's enough about me waffling here, but today we're looking at the following. What to do if you have a name, that's always a good start. But there are pitfalls with that and things to consider. We're going to be talking about the London Gazette, the use of service numbers, which I've mentioned previously, obtaining service records, squadron records and squadron associations. Again, we'll be explaining this. You might not know what a squadron is or what's made up of a squadron. I'll explain that. We'll explain that at some point.

The National Archives, what it is, what's there, how you can use it. The International Bomber Command Center, IBCC, both their losses database and their digital archives. And a quick shout out to Dan Ellin there, who was our first guest, wasn't he? And his team there doing absolutely brilliant work. We're also going to be looking at the Commonwealth War Graves and what that is, what they can offer.

jane (09:57.646)
We're done. Yeah.

James Jefferies (10:07.712)
And then also consider things like genealogy websites. And you do get specialists as well. So you can get people. And I did that with one of my great uncles on the First World War who died at Gallipoli. And that was very, very useful as well. Of course, you have to pay. It's not cheap either. And we're also going to be answering some of our listeners' specific questions on this topic. So Jane, I mean, you had to go through all of this in a lot of detail, didn't you, when it came to researching Above Us the Stars, your book about 10 Squadron, and your uncle's crew.

jane (10:38.67)
Yeah, that's right. I did. Now it took me probably about two years to research him and his crew, but I was very lucky because I already had a lot of information to begin with. So when Jack passed away in 1988, we actually found a carrier bag taped underneath his kitchen sink. And in that carrier bag, there was his original log book. There were a pile of photographs of his crew and his ground crew. And on the back of these photographs,

He'd written the name of every single person and their rank, which of course was incredibly helpful. I had his pay book. I had his clothing card. I had his notebooks from wireless school, which detailed all of his training and everything. I had his medals, apart from his DFM, which was missing. And I also had even his dog tags. So I had absolutely everything.

James Jefferies (11:11.232)
Wow. Yeah.

James Jefferies (11:34.496)
That's amazing.

jane (11:36.494)
And it still took me two years, even with all of that information, to track down basically the rest of the crew and to complete the full story. Because obviously the log book, an airman's log book, only is relevant to the time when they're actually serving as aircrew, when they're actually flying. So anything before then, you wouldn't find any information about that. So I had this big gap when I knew that Jack had...

James Jefferies (11:57.152)
Yeah. Yeah.

jane (12:05.998)
enlisted in September 1940, just two weeks after his 18th birthday. But then his log book didn't begin until December 1942. So where was he in the intervening period? I had absolutely no idea. So that's when I had to apply for his service record. And that basically helped me fill in the gaps. So we're going to be talking a little bit about that later on. But I also wanted to find out.

James Jefferies (12:31.744)
Yeah, but they're so useful up here

jane (12:34.99)
Yeah, I also wanted to find out about the rest of his crew as well and that was probably the most the most difficult bit. So I got involved with Squadron Associations that are going to be talking about. I was able to access the Squadron Operational Record Books, which basically lists every bombing operation that a crew flew on. It gives you the date, it gives you the mark and number of the aircraft, it tells you what time they took off, it tells you what their load was.

what their destination was, what time they landed and a brief description of the operation compiled by the pilot. So that was incredibly useful information because I had all the information there about all the crew members and it also gave me their service numbers as well. So then I was able to sort of cross pollinate if you like it and look elsewhere. I ended up on genealogy websites. I got more information from the Squadron Association. I was scrolling through

old newsletters from the early 1980s from the Squadron Association. There was one bit of information that I just couldn't find out and that was what had happened to the tail gunner Bill Bradshaw. I couldn't find any sort of reference. I couldn't find his death certificate. I could find absolutely nothing at all. And then in the Squadron newsletter, there was an address for him in 1983. This is obviously before the days of data protection, et cetera.

and I googled it and managed to get a phone number rang up the occupants and said, when did you move into this house? Were you aware of the Bradshaw family who used to live there before, et cetera? And the person who answered the phone just sort of chuckled and said, William Bradshaw? And I said, yes. And he said, you're speaking to him, my dear. So that...

James Jefferies (14:02.944)
Mm.

jane (14:29.998)
was just amazing he was still alive that's why I hadn't been able to find him and he was 98 at that point so I was then obviously able to go and see him and visit him and get so much information about about the rest of the crew that you just can't information that you can't gather from documents you know about their sort of personalities and their interactions and all that sort of thing so I ended up completely right rewriting the book after I after I'd met Bill but I mean that was just an absolute stroke of luck it really really was.

James Jefferies (14:33.952)
Wow.

James Jefferies (14:43.904)
Mm -hmm.

jane (14:59.982)
You know, I can't tell you how lucky I was to get that information. And most people aren't that lucky. You know, and it's all about patience. It's about detective work. It's about looking at things from a different perspective, a different angle, sort of trying to think outside the box, thinking more laterally, because sometimes the information you need isn't just written down on a website or on a piece of paper, you know, and it's...

James Jefferies (15:03.552)
That's amazing, yeah.

jane (15:28.046)
You've got to sort of think around the box if you like. So most people won't have that information that I was looking to begin with. So, Gems, do you want to explain where you begin if all you have is a name?

James Jefferies (15:44.096)
Yeah, I guess actually that's quite common, isn't it? Just to have a name and nothing else. So yeah, I mean, firstly, make sure you've got the correct name. And sometimes a surname isn't helpful. So Smith, for example. Yeah, that can make things more difficult. First thing really is talk to family members if you can. And of course, ask for their permission. But they may have information or leads. There may be stories that are

jane (15:47.79)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

James Jefferies (16:12.704)
And again, sometimes things are not, I won't say not true, but the past and the passing of years can make stories change. People can misremember things. I misremember things from a couple of years back. Sometimes I can't even remember things from, you know, yeah, that's just the way it is. So bearing in my memory and such like, but check genealogy websites as well. Sometimes they have records online as well. If you know the squadron number, you can check.

as Jane mentioned, the squadron associations for more information. First of all, just this is for the absolute beginners who might be listening, you might go, what is a squadron? Which is fair enough. So to put it very, very simply, it's usually a unit made up of flights of aircraft attached would be ground staff. They'd usually be based in an airfield, but they often moved around. They also can be, there can be ground based squadrons as well. So they're not always active in the air squadrons. That's something else to bear in mind.

And above the squadron you have groups and then you have commands. So for example, you might have an air gunner in a Lancaster, that aircraft would have a call sign, usually a letter of the alphabet. So Kew, the term would be the 1940s phonetic alphabet, Kew Queenie. A 44 squadron on the other side, so it has a Kew and then the other side of the RAF roundels would be the letters KM, that would be 44 squadron. But again, this might change. If you have a photograph, bear this in mind.

But that can be a clue that can get you on the track of looking up something. If you have a photograph of someone near and you can see the letters on the side of the aircraft or the serial number, which is in smaller numbers near the tail of the aircraft, that's always something to be aware of. And 44 Squadron at that point were a member of five group. They're based in Lincoln, but 44 moved around. So, for example, 1942, they were RF Waddington. They were there from June 1937 to May 1943. So again, you can look these things up.

And you can get in touch with these squadron associations. That's basically a little, there's more to it, but that's a very, very basic going off a photograph or going off some bits of information you can then build onto. And as I say, the squadron associations, I'll go into a bit more detail about that in a second. But another source to check is the London Gazette, which people might not have heard of. And this is invaluable for information.

James Jefferies (18:37.472)
This can be the information you can find there includes service numbers. But the main thing about Gazettes are that they give details of promotions. So it would be an announcement saying that Sergeant James Jeffreys has been promoted to Flight Sergeant James Jeffreys. There would be a service number and a little bit more information. You can find out what squadron he was with. And these can be searched online as well. So that's the London Gazette. And as I say, we've mentioned service numbers there. We talked about that a lot. This is really, really useful. So an example would be.

72021. Now I've got to ask the nerds, does anybody know what service number this might be or Jane, is that one that rings with you at all?

jane (19:15.406)
No.

James Jefferies (19:17.696)
Well, listeners, you can guess that service W right now. It is Leonard Cheshire. So everyone had a service number. I nearly chose Guy Gibson, but I thought the title of the podcast, but yes, I thought I went to Leonard Cheshire. Very famous Leonard Cheshire. So yeah, the service number, it might be on if there's a gallantry medal or similar, there will be a service number and other medals sometimes have the service number on the back.

jane (19:24.846)
well, I was going to say Guy Gibson, but yeah, yeah, well.

James Jefferies (19:46.752)
If you have it, it's so, so super helpful. You can then look up service histories. And that is, as I described earlier with my great granddad, a source of incredibly useful information. So the NCOs and these are non -commissioned officers, often dubbed airmen or irks. We've had, as I've mentioned, Dan had an idea he was talking about. Yeah.

jane (20:05.87)
So they see, yeah.

jane (20:09.966)
So these are basically your sergeants, aren't they? Yeah.

James Jefferies (20:10.912)
He basically a sergeant. So it's below a pilot officer above. Yeah, there are officers and then below that you got your flight sergeant, sergeants, your corporals, your leading aircraftsmen, LACs, et cetera, et cetera. Now records who served after 1939 and men who service numbers are above five, six, two, eight, seven, five are with the RAF. And you can check out the gov .uk website.

and have a search and you can have a look around. There's various different filters for this. This also applies to officers, but something that I want to add just in case you're going, while I'm here, I'll look up Uncle Harry, he was in the First World War before 1922, they're not there. So do bear that in mind. And of course, the thing to remember is if they might have a different service number, for example, if they're in the Royal Australian Air Force or the Royal Canadian Air Force,

and they may have joined an RAF squadron and that complicates things a little bit. So yeah, trying to keep it as simple as possible, but it is a little bit complex.

jane (21:15.982)
Yeah, well, I think we should explain is that for people who aren't familiar with this is that every man and woman who enlisted was given an individual service number. And that number basically followed them around wherever they were. So whatever records that their details appeared on, whether it be squadron operational records or records of bombing missions or whatever, or promotions or whatever, their name would be given on this service number, which is basically an additional identifier.

would be given as well. So you might have 47 John Smiths, but those 47 John Smiths would all have a different service number to distinguish them. Okay. So, and that's what you need if you want to apply for service records. And that's what I'm going to go into on now. So what is a service record? A service record, think of it a bit like your sort of school record of...

James Jefferies (21:59.072)
Definitely.

jane (22:13.646)
of attendance or service or whatever you get when you leave school, which explains when you joined the school, what sort of awards you won, what exams you sat, what qualifications you got, etc. This is basically the equivalent for your military service. It will record the date of enlistment. It will record what training units the person attended, what their trade was, what sort of

then operational units that they were assigned to, so that their particular squadron, it will record things like exam results, it will record things like disciplinary procedures, promotions, awards, gallantries, being AWOL, it will cover absolutely everything. Now, the RAF records tend to be much more detailed than those for other services. I'll give you an example.

I obtained my Uncle Jack's records from the RAF and from that I was able to fill in all the gaps and work out exactly where we'd been in those two years between enlisting and beginning flying in December 1942. I obtained my granddad Jim's records for the same period. Jim served with the Eighth Army in North Africa and Italy and I'd waited...

two years to get his records. That's how long the waiting list was at that particular time because it was during Covid as well. When the records arrived I could not have been more disappointed. It recorded the date of his enlistment, the fact that he joined the Royal Engineers, the fact that they were doing some training in the south of England and the fact that he was being shipped off to North Africa in October 1942. There was then nothing until the day that he set foot back in England in 1946.

Because when you think about it, the army is obviously slightly different. You've got millions of men moving around all over the place all the time, and you just cannot keep a track without computer records of where particular men are on particular days. It's just impossible. But obviously with the RAF, it's very different because you have all the men sort of contained in one particular unit or squadron, you know exactly where they are, you know exactly what they're doing, you know, day to day.

James Jefferies (24:10.912)
Yeah.

jane (24:31.822)
So for that reason, the RAF records tend to be absolutely invaluable and they are so much more detailed. So how do you actually go about getting these records? You will need to go to the government gov .uk website. What I'm going to do is I will put a link to all the websites that we mentioned in the show notes for this episode so that you could just click on the web on the episode on your particular podcast provider and it will list in the notes.

all the websites that you need. And if anyone wants a transcript of this show as well with details in, please just let us know and we can send you one. So your first point of call is the gov .uk website. And if you just sort of Google obtain deceased persons, military service records, it will bring up the link. You will usually need a signed permission from the next of kin.

and a copy of the death certificate. If you don't have those or if you're not a relative, you can still obtain a summary, but it's not as detailed. Don't expect the service records to provide you with every operation that your ancestor flew on, if he was aircrew, that information is not recorded there. As I've said, it will include things like enlistment, training, promotion, dates of service with particular units or squadrons, test results, postings, awards, disciplinaries, etc.

That's what it's for. It's basically an administrative record. So a service record is going to tell you roughly where your ancestor was at any given time, which is obviously incredibly useful when you're trying to place them. The situation is complicated in that all of the military records for the UK are in the process of being transferred to the National Archives.

Most of the Army records have already gone, but the plan is that the Navy and the RAF records will also be transferred as well. So this system is in a bit of upheaval at the moment. Now you do have to pay a fee if you are applying directly to the MOD through the GOV .website. I think last time I paid it was about £40 or so. Time scale, it depends.

James Jefferies (26:50.72)
Yeah.

jane (26:54.35)
RAF records tended to be quicker. Jack's took two months, but as I say, Jim's from the Army, that took two years. So it can be a complicated process and you may well find that you apply to the MOD via the gov .website, then they might say, sorry, the records have already been transferred to the National Archives. Then you've then got to apply via the archives as well. So be patient. It's a long, tedious and drawn out process, but it is absolute

James Jefferies (27:17.344)
Yeah.

jane (27:22.286)
gold mine of information once you actually get those records. Is there anything you want to add to that James?

James Jefferies (27:24.992)
Absolutely, yeah.

James Jefferies (27:30.08)
Yeah, just really, I think one thing I very quickly want to add is, I'd say, prepare to be disappointed more than anything else. And like Jane says, be prepared to wait as well. It is a long, it can be a very, very long process. So yeah, that's the first thing I'd say. So assuming that you know what squadron your family served on. So I mentioned 44 Squadron earlier, just one that I've been researching quite a lot.

jane (27:39.918)
Yeah.

James Jefferies (27:57.472)
You can now begin to track down much more detailed information about what that squadron was doing, where they were, if they were aircrew and an excellent port of call, which I mentioned earlier is squadron associations. So I'm going to take, for example, 101 squadron, just picked out of a hat. It was a number that came to mind. Other squadrons are available, as we say. I'll just go over this one for now. And on their website, they say that the association works to promote the fellowship and traditions of 101 squadron.

There is membership and it's open to all those who have served or continue to serve with the unit and associate members to others with links to the squadron. They have regular meetups. They also have some records. They have materials. One of the things that I will shout out to other websites and the social media pages, especially Facebook pages, if you're on there, they're also a useful point of contact for further information. I know I've spoken to a couple of associations in the past and they've been...

exceptionally helpful, pointing me in the right direction and such like. Also pointing me in the direction of books that are out of print now that I didn't know about that might have come out in the 80s, 90s, which are great places to go to and check. But anyway, I go down a little bit of a rabbit hole there. Now, I say you can join the association for a small fee with the access to records. They also publish newsletters alongside that. And these can stretch right back. Again, there might be information there. There might be.

mention a particular crews or individuals and they can put you in contact perhaps for a museum or such like. Many airfields have these museums often privately run or collections. They could be an available place to go to as well. A former airfield has a Nissan Hup that's got a couple of bits and bobs in it but will have contacts and such like. So that's another thing to consider.

Jane do you want to tell us anything about Squadron Records?

jane (29:55.566)
Yeah, what do we actually mean by squadron records and what's actually in them? Every squadron would keep what's called an operational record book and a squadron diary. The operational record book is, as it says, a record of operations and they will list every operation that that squadron took part in. So I'm talking about every operation being involving an attack on the enemy. So it could be,

It could be a reconnaissance, it could be mind laying, it could be bombing. It could be anything where there is a risk of coming into contact with the enemy, basically. And the squadron diary will record the comings and goings in the squadron, what's happening in the squadron on a day -to -day basis. So for example, a new commander is appointed to the squadron.

or there's an arrival of a new batch of aircraft. Squadron diaries are also useful because at the end of each month they normally record all the new aircrew coming in and they will list them individually and all the aircrew going out who are transferred to different units or who are finished their tours etc. So that is a really really good useful piece of information to track down where your particular ancestor or family member may be when they joined a squadron.

at any particular time if you haven't already got the service record. So some of these records have been digitized, some of them haven't. If they have been digitized, you should be able to find them via the National Archives. You can access them for free if you're in the UK. There is a limit on the number of records that you can download per day, but it's quite generous. I think it's something like 10 or 20, isn't it? What if the records...

haven't been digitised, they will still be in the archives but you just can't read them online. Option one, you can pay the staff at the archives to digitise them for you but be warned these records often run into hundreds and hundreds of pages because you're talking about five and a half, six years worth or you can pay someone to go along and scan them for you. Lots of people offer this service.

jane (32:19.854)
You can just pay them per sheet or a fixed sum and they'll just trott off to the archives and scan all the documents that you want them and email them to you. Or, fun option, you can go to Kew National Archives yourself and request and scan the records yourself. You can also find loads of other stuff at Kew at the National Archives, which we'll mentor later on. We have explanation of what to do to access the records at the National Archives. Go onto their website, search for the particular squadron that you want.

It will list all the particular records that they have. You can then book a reading room online and you basically book an appointment and then you order up all the records that you want to read on that particular day. I think there's a maximum of 12, I think 12 files that you can read. The problem is you don't know what's going to be in the files till you get them. Some of them are really, really thick and I'm talking like, you know, a foot thick. Others, the back, be like two pieces of paper in them, but you don't know until you actually get to see them.

but once you've been there and done it it's really straightforward and it's also extremely addictive. I think I've been about five times now and yeah I just absolutely love it. So you can then scan the Squadron diaries, you can scan the operational record books and the operational record books will show you exactly what operations your ancestor or family member flew on. So say for example it's a raid on Mannheim in August 1943 it will

James Jefferies (33:26.144)
Yes, yeah, yeah.

jane (33:48.91)
list the target, it will list all the crews and all the aircraft who took part in the operation. As I've said before, it will mention the sort of the takeoff time, the time they got back or if they failed to return, if they were shot down. And it's just a fantastic source of information because as well as seeing what your family member was doing, you can read the brief accounts from all the other crews who took part as well and get a real sort of rounded picture.

actually what was going on during that raid, for example the extent of enemy defenses, whether there was lots of flak, whether you know what the weather was like, all sorts of really important stuff which can basically put flesh on the bones if you like and really paint a picture of what your ancestor was going through at the time. I've covered everything now with the orbs and the diaries James.

James Jefferies (34:41.504)
That was wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. One thing I will add is sometimes the details that they have the essential details, but some go into more detail than other. So I've had reports where they'll go into detail what the weather's like. And then they'll have the crew reports. Some are very, very matter of fact. Some are incredibly brief. And you're going, hang on a second. You know, this is you might already know something or look at it and go, you could have gone into more detail about this and explain this. What about that? So that's something to bear in mind when you read these.

jane (34:50.926)
Yeah.

James Jefferies (35:11.108)
Yeah, and the other thing I will add actually is if you're a student, especially university student, college student, you can download them for free as well. If you sign in via your institution. Yeah, I know it's been incredibly useful. Why do you think I keep being a student for so long?

jane (35:24.974)
I didn't know that. Now you tell me.

 have saved a fortune when I was doing my MA at Wolverhampton

James Jefferies (35:34.528)
If you want a document specifically scanned, they do charge and it's the same amount, but they already digitalized ones. Yeah, they're free. You just log in by your institution. So I will say that you might not know that you might not, but you might be a university student now that doesn't know that. Or the other thing is you might know someone you might have a son or daughter or a friend or something. Yeah, just give them a nudge, buy them a pint of beer or something and say, would you mind logging in? And yeah, so I might have saved you a few bucks there. I don't know.

The other thing is when it comes to Kew some people say, I'll just check Kew, check Kew. That is the National Archives. I know Jane did say that, but just to emphasize, sometimes that can be a little bit confusing. That's National Archives at Kew, near the gardens, near the absolutely gorgeous gardens, which are worth visiting, absolutely worth visiting. So the other question to ask is, what if your relative was killed either in operations or training? This is something I tweeted about. I think about 8 ,000 were killed on...

training or non combative operations, which is a massive number actually at the 55 ,000, which just goes to show that it was dangerous even without flak and fighters all around you. Now one of the first things you can do is look through the Commonwealth War Graves Commission records. You can search online where you get where there is a gravestone, if there is one, where it is, the plot number, so if you did want to visit you can.

There's also a chance now if they don't have a grave, their name will be at the Runnymede Memorial. Now the Runnymede Memorial commemorates just over 20 ,000 servicemen and women in air forces that died during operations from bases in the United Kingdom and Northwest Europe. And as I say, they have no known graves, so that's over 20 ,000. So that's worth checking. If you hit a brick wall here,

in finding a grave plot, they may well not have one. I say 20 ,000 is a large number. You think about what job they were doing. Yeah. You also have the International Bomber and Command Centre, which you mentioned earlier, and the losses database. So there are links to casualty files, grave records as well, which links back to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, CWGC. And they're also list, which is...

James Jefferies (38:00.192)
helpful if you're looking into a round a picture of who might have been involved as well. The other list of other crew members that were killed. They also have another add on is their digital archive. And this is online, it's got its own search engine and filter. This is really useful if you want more additional information. So you might want to know more about 44 Squadron, you can search 44 Squadron you want to get it's that specific. And they have many items of interest.

and I also, one thing I will just shout out quickly is if you've got something and you're not sure what to do with it, whether it's a memoir or photographs or something, it can be digitalized by the international Obama command center and given back, or you can donate the item. So just another shout out there for the brilliant work that they do, that team. You've also got casualty files at the national archives. Again, this is a great source of information as often, they include correspondence from, sorry, the, the POW.

files at National Archives, great source for info and include correspondence of Red Cross, German authorities, letters and correspondence to family members. And you know, you think about how many were POWs, there's a lot of source of information there. Is there anything to add there, Jane?

jane (39:18.126)
Yes, the casualty files are also useful for where there have been r being fatalities because it will normally record the precise location of the crash if it was on land. Sometimes there's information from sort of local people on the ground, if you like, as to the recovery of the bodies and where they were taken initially before being eventually transported to CWGC.

cemetery at the conclusion of the war usually. And also there are sometimes accounts from surviving crew members who were taken prisoner. I'm just thinking of a particular mine laying crew that I've just written about where the pilot was killed but the navigator was captured and he was able to supply through the Red Cross an account of what actually happened and how the pilot came to be killed because they'd hit the water.

Some of them were able to swim out, but the pilot wasn't and he drowned. And then there's even just sort of correspondence passing for backs and forwards between family members, you know, desperately seeking whereabouts of men who'd been recorded as missing, but whose deaths had not been confirmed. I mean, there's even sort of correspondence from 1945, 1946 from mothers saying, you know, they still haven't given up hope and yet their son was lost in, you know, 1941 or whatever. It's absolutely heartbreaking.

But it also is useful in building up a picture of sort of the administrative side as to how all this was dealt with. For example, there is correspondence from one chap's father. This young chap had ended up as a prisoner of war. And there's correspondence passing between his father and his squadron commander asking when his father can come and pick up his car and his cricket kit. And that just...

sort of gives you sort of just that human level if you like of detail and information about this young guy's character and you know what he liked to do. There's a whole list of all of his personal kit there you know that was just sitting there waiting for his dad to come and collect it.

James Jefferies (41:23.424)
Yeah.

James Jefferies (41:30.752)
Yeah, I think that's the other thing we're researching is when you build up a story, you'll have those moments where you go, goodness, I don't know, that that that human reminder, because and especially with this topic, you'll get letters like that, or you'll find that they're letter back to their parents if they don't come back and you know, they haven't come back. And sometimes you don't know you're looking to a story and go, my goodness, you know, Dave didn't come back.

jane (41:45.55)
Yeah.

James Jefferies (41:59.488)
you find that out and it hits you. That's the other heads up I will give is it is a very moving experience doing this.

jane (42:01.486)
It does. Yeah, it really does.

Yeah, I spent a good day reading through casualty files last time I was at the archives at Kew probably last November. And honestly, by the end of the day, I was just in bits. It was really, really emotional. But the level of detail that I was able to glean from those records was absolutely superb. And I think that those are a really great help to anyone who is researching what might have happened to their ancestor.

James Jefferies (42:17.984)
Yeah.

jane (42:32.814)
So with regard to other archives and other sources of information then, all of the major museums will have their own archives. So the RAF Museum have got archives, Imperial War Museum, James has already mentioned the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive, but also the finest hour project that we talked about in our D -Day episode. They've just recently digitised loads of...

what stories, but also objects and stuff as well. And again, that's a great source. Genealogy websites are very useful. I find lots of information from them when I was researching my uncle's crew, to the extent that I was able to make contact with family members. And they then sent me sort of photographs and letters and all sorts of bits and pieces, which were just invaluable in fleshing out the story, if you like. And...

and giving me an insight into the character of these young men that you just can't perhaps gather from service records or military documents. So that's a really good source of information too. Now, I also want to mention some of the problems that you might encounter in your research. And the first thing to mention is that some servicemen lied about what they were doing during the war. And this is very, very common.

Quite often a little white lie turns into mythology and then next thing you know it's an accepted family truth. So one of the problems that I encounter a lot, I do a lot of work with 10 Squadron Association is I will receive an inquiry from someone who will say that, okay, I'll give you this example. I've changed some of the details too, obviously. A lady contacts me to say that her...

father had served as a tail gunner on Lancasters at the end of, well she thought from late 44 to 1945 with 10 Squadron and straight away I knew that couldn't be right because 10 Squadron never flew Lancasters, I thought you know maybe she was mistaken, so she said no no it was definitely 10 Squadron, definitely 10 Squadron, so I went away and did some research.

jane (44:51.534)
said, yes, he took part in all of these operations and this, that and the other. And it turns out that at the end of the war, so May 1945, that was the week that he joined his operational squadron. So he'd never flown operationally during the war at all. So everything that he told his family about his service just wasn't true.

You will also get examples of people who served with particular squadrons who will say that they were aircrew and they weren't, they were ground crew. And you should be able to establish that pretty quickly by going through the squadron operational record books, because if these people aren't mentioned in any of the operational records of particular raids or whatever, then they wouldn't have been aircrew. So.

That is something which happens a lot, to be honest. So please do bear that in mind. And also, as I've said, that your family stories can grow in the telling and quite often things turn out to be true, which, sorry, turn out to be untrue, which, you know, just could never have happened basically. And it is quite sad. And some families get quite uppity about that, you know. I mean, I've had people contact me and say, no, no, that can't be right. The documents must be wrong. But I'm sorry, but.

James Jefferies (45:53.664)
Yeah.

James Jefferies (46:10.144)
Yeah.

jane (46:17.294)
five years worth of operational record books from a squadron which don't mention your father at all are not wrong. And some people have great difficulty accepting that.

James Jefferies (46:21.312)
Yeah. Yeah.

James Jefferies (46:26.528)
Yeah. There's also. Yeah, someone might have been posted to 617 Squadron in May, in March 44, March 45, should I say, near the end of the war and. The store and they were of ground crew and they go, yes, I was at 617 Squadron that is past the summer. that was a Dan Buster Squadron. The next person it's past, they were a Dan Buster and they were there during that raid, weren't they? And it just sort of like snowball. So someone might not be telling.

jane (46:47.502)
Yeah, it's like Chinese whispers, isn't it? Yeah.

James Jefferies (46:56.096)
falsehood, but it's just that, you know, that passing on that information just suddenly gets distorted and changed and people jump onto things quickly. And that's kind of like the job when researching this is being aware that that sometimes happens.

jane (47:10.894)
Yeah. The second problem that I want to touch on is with regard to ground crew. If your ancestor served as ground crew, other than what's in their service record, there will be next to no information about what they did on a daily basis. Unfortunately, it's just it's just not recorded. It just wasn't written down because there were so many of them and they changed and moved around all the time. It.

the logistics and the sort of record compilation possibilities, if you like, just did not exist at that time. And what they were doing on a day to day basis, they wouldn't, yes, you know, the maintenance records for the aircraft might be somewhere, but it won't be listing, you know, it was Tommy Smith who changed the wheel or whatever that particular day. It just, that level of detail, I'm afraid, just doesn't exist. Whereas,

if for aircrew for obvious reasons, it's much more deep, much more possible to delve into that level of detail.

James Jefferies (48:22.912)
Okay, so we are now going to be answering your questions. We've had a few in. Same goes for the live audience, if you want to ask us something as well. Now, some of these have been sent via email or social media. The first one we've got is what about OTUs and HCUs, training units? So OTUs, operational training unit, HCUs, heavy conversion units. So yeah, this is all about building up before going to a squadron, which we talked about.

earlier on. There's a lot of these sort of acronyms and terms and such like, which can be a little bit confusing. But these in this case, you want to look at the National Archives, they are in AIR 50, the file AIR 50, A -I -R 50. Most of the RAF information is handily in AIR and they've got a number after that. And this is Air Ministry combat report, Second World War, miscellaneous units and flights 504 file.

and most are digitalized, as we said earlier. So you can go on the website and have a search for that. Jane, do you want to have a go at the next question we've got?

jane (49:32.366)
Yes, I'm going to tackle this one from from Bill, Bill Dawson said the military historically has always taken photographs of every course at every level since time immemorial and they still do. So photographs of courses throughout training must be out there somewhere for most of the initial operational and conversion courses. Where is the best place to find them, please?

It's an extremely difficult task. There is no central place where all of these records are located or held or digitized. And it's extremely difficult to locate photographs of individual sort of training groups unless they have been digitized. There's no central database and most photographs that were taken were personal rather than official remember as well. And you know, the photograph will be handed out, you know, when you pass out of your training unit.

James Jefferies (50:01.024)
Yeah.

jane (50:27.598)
The training unit aren't that bothered about keeping copies. It's for you to take home and show your mum kind of thing. Likewise, with the Endex photographs, most of those were commissioned by crews. So Endex is the end of operation photograph, which you often see of aircrews stood next to their aircraft, which was basically a souvenir of them having completed their tour. These were very much personal to the individual crews. And again,

Unless someone has specifically scanned those into some museum database or website, you've got no chance of locating them really. It's purely by chance. Squadron associations may have some and they're a good place to start. But again, that's like looking for a needle in a haystack. They will only have them if someone has handed them in to the squadron association. OK, so.

James Jefferies (51:19.04)
Yeah. Yeah.

jane (51:21.102)
It's like looking for a needle in a haystack. The chances of finding photos of one man or crew amongst hundreds of thousands is very slim indeed. Again, it's something I get asked a lot. Someone will email the 10 Squadron sort of Facebook page or whatever and say, have you got a photograph of such and such a crew on such and such a date? And I would say 99 .9 % of the time, the answer to that is no.

We just don't. It's just... All of these records, you have to remember, were scattered to the four winds basically after the war. And it's only probably in the last 10, 20 years that people have made efforts to sort of bring them all together and start compiling databases and stuff. So it's really, really a question of luck if you do find one. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's the reality of the situation.

James Jefferies (51:51.232)
not not at all. The digital.

James Jefferies (52:19.36)
The Digital Archive Public Command Center, they have a section of, can you identify this image? Because often there's no way of identifying it. And as you say, Jane, you think about how much was lost over the years. another picture of an air crew. Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

jane (52:36.91)
So much stuff was binned after the war, this is the thing. You know, so much stuff was just burned or shredded, I don't need that anymore. Yeah. So, so much stuff was destroyed. Excuse me.

James Jefferies (52:44.288)
Yeah, yeah, it's tragic. We'll go back to my own family. I don't know what happened to a lot of photographs. I know that there were ones, but I think my granddad and my mum's side got rid of a load of them as the years went on. It was just like, it's just cluttering up. This is ones when he was in the army in North Africa. He was part of Operation Torch and Stubbornness. And they're going, what? I want to see all this. I want to know about this. But yeah, it's a different experience, isn't it?


James Jefferies (54:16.512)
So our next question is from Andrew Maville, Andrew Maville, and a question that has been on his mind, so he's pulled up my dad's wartime service and how I have a decent amount of information relating to the active missions with 76 Squadron because I have his logbook and I, that's a very good start, and also I...

And I also have a copy of his operational record showing the aircraft and crews flying missions in the same period, second half of 1943. However, I have no real idea what my dad was doing from when he joined up and was on airfield defense before volunteering to retrain as aircrew or where he was in 1944 and 1945 when he was training air gunners. I know names of some stations he was on. Most I assume were before 76 Squadron.

but not what order. So I guess my key question is how might I track his more complete service record? Wow, where to start here? Jane, do you want to go first?

jane (55:18.318)
Well, yeah, I mean, the first thing that you need to do is obtain his actual service record, the one that we've talked about obtaining from the Gov .uk website or from the National Archive if it's being moved there. That should give you the answers as to where he was at particular times, which units he was posted to, the dates that he was there. So I think that should hopefully give you enough information for you to work out where he was.

pretty much what he was doing. Once you've got the names of the units you can then look at, do some research on what those particular units were involved in, so what exactly they were involved in, training the airgunners etc and so to basically just piece it all together. But yeah that's got to be your first port of call, obtaining the full service record, that'd be from the date that he enlisted until the date that he was demobbed, everything will be in there.

James Jefferies (56:14.432)
And even has where they trained in such a way, well, it usually does as well, which is also very, very handy. So, do you wanna, shall I read the next question?

jane (56:27.63)
yeah, cool.

James Jefferies (56:30.496)
So this is from Freda Sneddon. Both my parents served in RAF Bomber Command. My father, Frederick, was with 617 Squadron. Ground crew, he was going to be a pilot but failed his eye test. My mum, Edwina Anne Wennell, was RAF attached to the Royal Canadian Air Force, RCAF. She was an air traffic controller, mentioned at dispatches. Freda wants to know how she can find out more. Well, I think we can say they mentioned the dispatches. You're looking at the London Gazette.

aren't you? Because it's going to be in there and you've got a name, which is a good start. 617 Squadron Ground Crew wanted to be a pilot, failed his eyesight test. I mean, that's fairly common as well, isn't it, actually, that those that volunteer, that train for services as aircrew did go into other duties, other roles, ground work, et cetera. Anything else you want to add, Jane, there? I mean, it's the same story, really, isn't it, with

jane (57:27.382)
Yeah, so what what Frida needs to do is to obtain the full service records. But again, the problem is with ground crew, although she will be able to work out where he was and what he was doing, there won't be a great more amount of detail on that. I know that she mentions that her mum was attached to the Royal Canadian Air Force. If you are Canadian or researching a Canadian...

James Jefferies (57:27.392)
service numbers and squadron diaries and such like.

jane (57:55.95)
ancestor, a family member, you are in a much better position than if you are researching a member of the Royal Air Force and that's because the Canadian records are so much better, they're so much more detailed and they're all more or less in one place as well. There's a website which I will again post the link to which you can search for all the records on there and I think the Australian records, now I come to think about it, I think they're a lot better than the RAF ones as well.

So basically anything other than anything other than RAf, you're  probably in a better position to find out. But yeah, well, that's Britain for you. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that should be your first port of call for you to get, to get the service records and see what's in there and then basically take it from there.


jane (59:03.79)

You'll find all the links to all the websites we've mentioned in the show notes. And if you want a transcript of today's show as an aide -memoir, please do just get in touch and we'll email you one. So basically to summarize, you need patience, you need dedication, and also sometimes you need an acceptance that the piece of information or the photograph that you need may no longer exist. You never know, you might get that lucky break like I did when I found Bill Bradshaw  the tail gunner in my Uncle's Crew.

Good luck with your search and we hope that you found this helpful. Coming up in our next episode, we're going to be expanding our remit a little bit and chatting to author and historian Andrew Chatterton about coastal command. I love a bit coastal command. Yeah. So that should be a really, really good. Yeah.

James Jefferies (59:51.904)
 resources and such. I really want to talk about Coastal Command Bomber Command and the Battle of Britain as well. I so much talk about mine -laying and all.

jane (01:00:03.214)
loads, absolutely loads of stuff there. Yeah.

James Jefferies (01:00:07.392)
So finally, a special thank you to our live audience members for joining us this evening. We hope to make this a regular feature. So you'll see me making mistakes usually and the fact that it's edited out, you'll get all of those things behind the scenes. You can subscribe at nevermindthedambusters .buzzsprout .com from just £2 .50 a month. So yeah, for the third of a pint of beer, you can support us a month.

Thank you so much for listening. Was it about seven, eight pounds? I know. I've got to move up north. Maybe that's not gonna do it anyway. Thank you all for listening, as I say. If you've enjoyed the show, please leave a review as well or rating where you get your podcast. It really does help. And of course, share around to your friends, you're enjoying it. So yeah, thank you ever so much.

jane (01:00:36.686)
Pints are expensive down south.

jane (01:00:43.182)
Only about £4.50 here. Good grief.

You really do.

jane (01:01:06.574)
So thanks again so much everyone for joining us, especially to our live audience. And we will see you again in a fortnight's time. Thank you very much. Goodbye.